Epic #pygame Rant

While just chatting in #pygame about stuff one guy decides to talk to himself, FOR OVER AN HOUR. This is not edited, he is talking to himself. Sealed

[21:25:34] * rhin0 not particularly advanced
[21:25:52] * rhin0 tried threads got them working program still stops
[21:26:23] RoadKillGrill: if you thread made sure you atre using multiprossesing because threads are fake :P
[21:26:38] rhin0: i thought threads were multiprocessing that is what they are
[21:27:03] RoadKillGrill: thead is an old modle that emulates threading
[21:27:07] HydroKirby: Python threads are fake
[21:27:25] HydroKirby: They pretty much thread within Python itself
[21:27:36] rhin0: i got stuff communicating with sockets but my program stops dead when it communicates
[21:28:00] rhin0: its all different
[21:28:17] Knio: python threads aren't fake
[21:28:24] RoadKillGrill: ya they are
[21:28:31] Knio: no they aren't
[21:28:38] RoadKillGrill: lies
[21:28:47] HydroKirby: It's certaintly not what I've read
[21:29:21] Knio: you may mean the GIL
[21:29:30] HydroKirby: Yes
[21:29:33] Knio: but threads are definitely real
[21:29:35] * rhin0 still hasn't worked out why a pygame program when running hogs processor - graph 100% processor etc but doing nothing
[21:29:47] rhin0: apologies (amateur)
[21:30:04] RoadKillGrill: rhin0, cap the frame rate of the app
[21:30:08] HydroKirby: I read that they weren't real since they aren't made at the OS level. To stay cross-platform
[21:30:13] Knio: rhin0: because you have an infinite loop and no sleep
[21:30:21] rhin0: i sort of realised that
[21:30:27] rhin0: but thats the level i am at
[21:30:45] rhin0: you put a 'sleep' statement in there?
[21:30:51] rhin0: wait etc
[21:31:07] RoadKillGrill: look at the timrer module
[21:31:12] RoadKillGrill: #timer
[21:31:15] RoadKillGrill: bah
[21:31:52] Knio: python threads are real kernel-level threads
[21:32:15] rhin0: so a loop is purely running doing nothing bzzzt
[21:32:24] rhin0: at kernel level
[21:33:07] Knio: people seem to be spreading a lot of lies about threads and the GIL lately
[21:34:34] rhin0: whats the async module i can't remember
[21:34:40] Knio: asyncore?
[21:34:45] rhin0: yep
[21:35:17] rhin0: so i can get my little bug to communicate with a message and not stop (wait)
[21:35:31] Knio: yes
[21:35:40] rhin0: i've not got that to work
[21:35:54] * rhin0 tried putting it into a thread (same result) - stops
[21:36:09] rhin0: its not too hard?
[21:36:10] Knio: uh
[21:36:18] Knio: you're gonna have to be a lot more specific
[21:36:57] rhin0: my little bug flits around the pygame world bouncing off screen boundaries - it needs to do a communication with socket - currently it stops
[21:37:27] Knio: whats a bug?
[21:37:28] rhin0: i need it to get a message and the whole game world doesn't stop until socket response
[21:37:34] rhin0: a game bug
[21:38:00] rhin0: my little frog bouncing around
[21:38:03] Knio: any code that calls socket.recv() is going to stop whatever thread its running in, yes
[21:38:31] rhin0: so how do i get it to communicate and still move not wait until socket receive etc thats asyncore
[21:38:37] Knio: you can set the socket to nonblocking, and then it will either throw an exception, or return properly, but never wait
[21:38:53] Knio: you can use the select module to check if it will wait or not before you even call recv()
[21:39:01] rhin0: ok select
[21:39:11] Knio: or you can use asyncore, (which does the above, but wraps it in something)
[21:39:21] rhin0: is that the way?  asyncore?
[21:39:25] Knio: i've never used asycore so I don't know its api
[21:39:37] Knio: it might be the easiest for you
[21:39:54] rhin0: i'm talking about getting game objects to communicate
[21:39:59] rhin0: messaging
[21:40:32] * rhin0 has made game objects as software classes
[21:40:48] rhin0: pure software objects -
[21:41:27] rhin0: game objects are actually software objects
[21:41:40] rhin0: does that sound ok?
[21:41:47] Knio: neither of those things are real definitions
[21:42:07] Knio: try asyncore, yeah
[21:42:14] rhin0: when i look at a game object - features definition i look at them as class/method
[21:42:17] rhin0: they are that
[21:42:22] rhin0: ok
[21:43:13] * rhin0 creates a game object as a class
[21:43:17] rhin0: with its own methods
[21:43:36] rhin0: is that the right way to do things?  
[21:43:58] rhin0: so when it does any interaction at all it has methods to interact
[21:44:21] * rhin0 thinks of software objects as physical game entities
[21:44:29] rhin0: ie classes/methods
[21:44:53] rhin0: which can be expanded
[21:45:14] rhin0: methods i see as interfaces nothing else - classes are objects
[21:45:18] rhin0: game objects
[21:45:32] rhin0: methods are 'interaction'
[21:46:20] Knio: you aren't making any sense, but how you design your code is up to you
[21:46:26] rhin0: ok
[21:46:44] * rhin0 has problem with interfacing terminology i understand
[21:46:57] rhin0: class = object? yes?
[21:47:11] rhin0: a game entity
[21:47:32] rhin0: methods = means of object/class interaction - interface
[21:47:52] rhin0: i create a game object - a silly frog - walking around it is a software class
[21:48:32] rhin0: i see oo environmentally
[21:48:47] rhin0: objects = players - entities
[21:49:09] rhin0: methods = interfaces - the way the object/class interacts
[21:50:02] * rhin0 even will put game data into the software object - data in code
[21:50:10] rhin0: why not
[21:50:48] rhin0: encoding the game data into the class physical progam code
[21:50:53] rhin0: all cool
[21:52:18] rhin0: i keep thinking of virtual machines and in effect a game object is a virtual machine
[21:53:13] * rhin0 has actually achieved nothing - prototypes
[21:53:16] rhin0: bbl
[21:53:50] rhin0: the game object data - encoded - like its DNA
[21:56:24] * rhin0 thought of incorporating the game object data into its class like a payload - like DNA
[21:56:50] rhin0: defines the object
[21:57:01] rhin0: its environment/scope
[21:57:08] rhin0: formalism/mechanism
[22:01:15] rhin0: i think object orientation is the main thing and the most important thing of any programming language - and that is why python is excellent - it's object model is clean and assumed - not complex (unlike java)
[22:01:48] rhin0: its clean and it doesn't insult the intelligence
[22:02:17] rhin0: language should be secondary
[22:02:21] RoadKillGrill: and thats why lisp was made
[22:03:24] rhin0: i believe emacs was written in lisp
[22:03:34] rhin0: which is supposed to be some sort of a model
[22:03:58] * rhin0 thinks languages are secondary
[22:04:09] rhin0: define a system eventually it redefines the language
[22:04:28] * rhin0 hates emacs
[22:05:14] rhin0: emacs is just about the GUI -- the GUI is the main problem currently in computing
[22:05:58] rhin0: people say know vi be a software scientist - whatever - why?  its just a cult
[22:06:03] rhin0: vi/emac = cults
[22:06:08] rhin0: why bother
[22:06:29] rhin0: expert?  in what?  some obscure language
[22:06:50] rhin0: super hot in vi c emacs lisp c whatever its not logical thought
[22:07:04] rhin0: such as sql = a buffer - why bother?
[22:07:21] rhin0: all the experts experts in the crust beyond logical thought
[22:07:35] rhin0: lisp is definitely closer - even than modern languages
[22:07:46] rhin0: IMO
[22:08:16] rhin0: an expert in a dull culdesac - a maze
[22:08:41] rhin0: so what - design is physics it is physical properties - computing currently avoids all that (the babel syndrome)
[22:09:16] rhin0: know things but know what?  how to define --- physical properties - we are engineers engineers are meant to be physicists
[22:09:33] rhin0: it's become a morass (babel)
[22:09:59] rhin0: too many languages too many accreditations o yes you know things you speak a language (but what do you actually say?)
[22:12:13] rhin0: thats why gaming excites me - its a separate realm - its the basis of computing - grass roots
[22:12:46] rhin0: millions of separate sects creeds out there but the gamers still play with the machine pixels objects interactions
[22:13:01] rhin0: its different - but separate - why?
[22:14:17] rhin0: massive schemas like sql given labels - but what are they?  simple things but outwardly complex - guilds created around them - accreditation - an industry - hasn't that been the point?
[22:14:41] rhin0: put a huge big label on it and market it (much of software)
[22:14:54] rhin0: engineering and the basis is in physics
[22:16:58] rhin0: its lost - vast great schemas archetypes - but it has to be said what are they?  the tools have superceded this - languages have redefined - most simple software products now are redefined in language now - these new languages - 200 lines of c 500 lines of vb 100 lines of java 50 of python
[22:17:33] rhin0: python is all about efficiency
[22:17:48] rhin0: its so close to the model it is actually the machine
[22:19:02] rhin0: and the strength of the symbols through the object model functionality and power
[22:21:32] rhin0: outside the game realm models are forced in the game world it is pure simulation without reference - free
[22:21:42] rhin0: unconstrained
[22:22:52] rhin0: outside the game world the language has to be compatible (with whatever) inside it is free - the biggest thing about pygame i realised - its a simple canvas - with simple mechanical archetypes
[22:23:05] rhin0: why is it separate?
[22:23:27] rhin0: the symbolic realm the heavy complexity of industry and all the models (babel)
[22:23:50] rhin0: multiple languages - the canvas is a pure emulation environment
[22:23:57] rhin0: pygame is like MATLAB
[22:24:41] rhin0: the bigges problem to a software designer is #1 making a model work #2 the interface - in the industrial world the interface is everything
[22:25:12] rhin0: the model is everything - embedded systems - make the software work then make it interface etc
[22:25:15] rhin0: hand over
[22:25:40] rhin0: gaming realms in programming far supercede anything in industrial programming
[22:25:54] rhin0: and now with the new power all the data can be brought in
[22:27:13] rhin0: your environment you have megabytes all in memory its all loadable pageable - bring it in reference it its all small - ai means that you can characterise type you can generalise
[22:27:42] * rhin0 wonders what the browser etc is
[22:27:55] rhin0: the browser now supercedes the OS
[22:28:28] rhin0: what are OS's for? all that knowledge all that accreditation a realm of experts but what do they actually know?
[22:28:53] rhin0: computers and data area bout the addressing of physicality we have lost that its a mess
[22:29:07] * rhin0 cynical
[22:29:39] rhin0: its so beautiful vast physical memory space
[22:30:03] rhin0: of formula without language
[22:30:15] rhin0: coding is defunct
[22:30:50] rhin0: its a graphical realm games are the new realm - south korea recently stated that gaming goods have economic value
[22:31:17] rhin0: there is a $5 billion p.a. industry now in gaming goods - created
[22:31:31] rhin0: its the new frontier
[22:31:54] rhin0: but there is currently a split its separate
[22:32:04] rhin0: games can be industry
[22:32:25] rhin0: what do people do in industry now?  these huge symbolic systems
[22:33:02] rhin0: pygame is a canvas
[22:33:21] rhin0: and the machines within it can have effect in the real world
[22:33:50] rhin0: gaming gold - real money
[22:33:52] rhin0: etc
[22:34:14] rhin0: astounding - really it is the advance of the machines
[22:34:36] rhin0: machines we serviced and still do - but how can they really work
[22:34:43] rhin0: they work now
[22:34:55] rhin0: monetary exchanges gaming capital
[22:36:01] rhin0: but how can it ever transfer?  are people who work in offices pushing symbolic systems around all the time fighting them - they are effectively working in the same way as computer gamers - but its DULL
[22:36:35] rhin0: the second industrial revolution
[22:38:04] rhin0: a vast desert of machines - what do they do currently? and where they do things what do they effect? - the transferal - how to effect?  
[22:38:39] rhin0: machines are powerful and unrealised
[22:38:50] Raeve: fucking machines, how do they work?
[22:39:19] rhin0: i think most people are trying to figure out the software that has been created raeve
[22:39:51] rhin0: why i say things like sql are given too much importance
[22:40:06] rhin0: and the multiple languages
[22:40:22] rhin0: experts in many things but are they actually engineers
[22:43:05] rhin0: it's been said that language defines species
[22:43:22] Dude-X: Raeve, haha
[22:52:13] rhin0: ???? ??? ????
[22:52:21] rhin0: lol
[22:52:46] rhin0: bbl
[22:52:48] rhin0: (maybe)
[22:57:26] Knio: that was amazing
[23:02:06] RoadKillGrill: quite
[23:04:52] aClam: Reminds me of that other guy
[23:04:55] aClam: that was tripping balls max
[23:05:04] aClam: Wondwer if they are related